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Why didn't Susan appear in the Last Battle?

 
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smile

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Since: Jan 22, 2004
Posts: 1



(Msg. 1) Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2004 12:21 am
Post subject: Why didn't Susan appear in the Last Battle?
Archived from groups: alt>books>cs-lewis (more info?)

Forgive me if this is a regular question that comes up, but I've dropped by
here, having been sick in bed with the flu for the last few days and reading
all seven Narnia books pretty much back to back, not having looked at them
since I was at primary school some 35 years or so ago.

I was reading the book in that half-fluey state of consciousness at about 5
O'Clock this morning and this bothered me:

I understand obviously that the Narnia books are an allegory for Christian
ideas, so was wondering there is actaully any deeper significance behind
Susan not coming back to Narnia in The Last Battle, besides being more
'interested in nylons and lipstick' or whatever the book actually gives as
the reason. Is there actually a deeper significance here?



Cheers Graham


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keithandcecile

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Since: Oct 03, 2003
Posts: 16



(Msg. 2) Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2004 9:23 pm
Post subject: Re: Why didn't Susan appear in the Last Battle? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Thu, 22 Jan 2004 16:21:15 GMT, "Graham Burnett"
wrote:

 >I understand obviously that the Narnia books are an allegory for Christian
 >ideas, so was wondering there is actaully any deeper significance behind
 >Susan not coming back to Narnia in The Last Battle, besides being more
 >'interested in nylons and lipstick' or whatever the book actually gives as
 >the reason. Is there actually a deeper significance here?

(working from memory) She didn't get killed in the train wreck that
killed the rest of them. This I would understand as God giving her
more time for repentance.

You'll want to be careful about the word, "allegory," around here. The
Narnia stories are not, strictly speaking, allegories, although
several (certainly not all) of the characters and situations parallel
Biblical and Christian personages, events, and types of situation.
--
Grace and Peace,
Keith Schooley
"As soon as man applies his intelligence and only his intelligence to
any object at all, he unfailingly destroys the object." --Leo Tolstoy

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tsbrueni

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Since: Dec 06, 2003
Posts: 980



(Msg. 3) Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2005 5:54 am
Post subject: Re: Why didn't Susan appear in the Last Battle? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: alt>books>cs-lewis, others (more info?)

Graham Burnett wrote:

> Forgive me if this is a regular question that comes up, but I've dropped by
> here, having been sick in bed with the flu for the last few days and reading
> all seven Narnia books pretty much back to back, not having looked at them
> since I was at primary school some 35 years or so ago.
>
> I was reading the book in that half-fluey state of consciousness at about 5
> O'Clock this morning and this bothered me:
>
> I understand obviously that the Narnia books are an allegory for Christian
> ideas, so was wondering there is actaully any deeper significance behind
> Susan not coming back to Narnia in The Last Battle, besides being more
> 'interested in nylons and lipstick' or whatever the book actually gives as
> the reason. Is there actually a deeper significance here?

Susan no longer believed in Narnia, so couldn't be summoned by the last King or
Narnia. No even Aslan can help people who are utterly closed minded (like most
of the Dwarves).
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Malcolm

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Since: Dec 24, 2005
Posts: 7



(Msg. 4) Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2005 9:06 pm
Post subject: Re: Why didn't Susan appear in the Last Battle? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Tim Bruening" wrote
>
>> I understand obviously that the Narnia books are an allegory for
>> Christian
>> ideas, so was wondering there is actaully any deeper significance behind
>> Susan not coming back to Narnia in The Last Battle, besides being more
>> 'interested in nylons and lipstick' or whatever the book actually gives
>> as
>> the reason. Is there actually a deeper significance here?
>
> Susan no longer believed in Narnia, so couldn't be summoned by the last
> King or
> Narnia. No even Aslan can help people who are utterly closed minded (like
> most
> of the Dwarves).
>
Susan was one of the four children (the church), but ultimately wasn't there
for the final meeting with Aslan.
The point Lewis is making is that being a Christian isn't enough to
guarantee salvation, and that the minor lack of commitment ot attachment to
earthly things is just as dangerous as the big sins committed by Eustace and
Edmund.
Also, we don't see Susan tortured in Hell. She is simply not present. We
don't know what becomes of her, because the church never declares anyone to
be defititely in Hell.
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Paul Ciszek

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Since: Dec 11, 2005
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(Msg. 5) Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2005 6:25 am
Post subject: Re: Why didn't Susan appear in the Last Battle? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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In article ,
Malcolm wrote:
>>
>Susan was one of the four children (the church), but ultimately wasn't there
>for the final meeting with Aslan.
>The point Lewis is making is that being a Christian isn't enough to
>guarantee salvation, and that the minor lack of commitment ot attachment to
>earthly things is just as dangerous as the big sins committed by Eustace and
>Edmund.
>Also, we don't see Susan tortured in Hell. She is simply not present. We
>don't know what becomes of her, because the church never declares anyone to
>be defititely in Hell.

We don't see her in Aslan's country because she is *alive*. She's not
in Hell, she is in England.

--
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pciszek at panix dot com | indistinguishable from malice."
Autoreply is disabled |
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Malcolm

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Since: Dec 24, 2005
Posts: 7



(Msg. 6) Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2005 2:55 pm
Post subject: Re: Why didn't Susan appear in the Last Battle? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Paul Ciszek" wrote
>>Also, we don't see Susan tortured in Hell. She is simply not present. We
>>don't know what becomes of her, because the church never declares anyone
>>to
>>be defititely in Hell.
>
> We don't see her in Aslan's country because she is *alive*. She's not
> in Hell, she is in England.
>
Yes, she wasn't the one who decided not to buy a ticket on the train that
crashed, killing Peter, Edmund and Lucy. Lewis decided that.
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user1731

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Since: Feb 01, 2005
Posts: 75



(Msg. 7) Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2005 6:33 pm
Post subject: Re: Why didn't Susan appear in the Last Battle? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Malcolm wrote:
> "Paul Ciszek" wrote
> >>Also, we don't see Susan tortured in Hell. She is simply not present. We
> >>don't know what becomes of her, because the church never declares anyone
> >>to
> >>be defititely in Hell.
> >
> > We don't see her in Aslan's country because she is *alive*. She's not
> > in Hell, she is in England.
> >
> Yes, she wasn't the one who decided not to buy a ticket on the train that
> crashed, killing Peter, Edmund and Lucy. Lewis decided that.

But being alive isn't an obstacle to visiting Narnia. They were always
alive before, and it only meant that they had to go back. What seems
to matter more is that Susan is an apostate - former - Narnian, which
is a metaphor or allegory for an apostate - former - Christian. There
are bible verses that say that when you're out, your friends on the
inside should give up on winning you back.

Having said that, neither she nor other characters seem to have been
along for every visit from Earth to Narnia after their first.

And apparently the actual obscurity of the Christian religion on Earth
- by which I mean that the Persons of the Godhood are invisible and all
evidence of their claimed activities seems to be open to contrary
interpretations - I mean for real and not only in the Narnia books -
seems to be represented in these books as an actual difference between
the worlds; Aslan is not always around but you know about it when he
is, and human visitors' memories of him are liable to fade quickly as
the natural condition of Earth reasserts itself.
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Emotional Larceny

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Since: Dec 25, 2005
Posts: 1



(Msg. 8) Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2005 8:45 pm
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graemecree2

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Since: Jan 31, 2005
Posts: 15



(Msg. 9) Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2005 12:02 am
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Paul Ciszek wrote:
> >She's not in Hell, she is in England.

Punchline omitted. Deemed too easy.
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Malcolm

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Since: Dec 24, 2005
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(Msg. 10) Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2005 4:02 am
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wrote
>> >
>> > We don't see her in Aslan's country because she is *alive*. She's not
>> > in Hell, she is in England.
>> >
>> Yes, she wasn't the one who decided not to buy a ticket on the train that
>> crashed, killing Peter, Edmund and Lucy. Lewis decided that.
>
> But being alive isn't an obstacle to visiting Narnia. They were always
> alive before, and it only meant that they had to go back. What seems
> to matter more is that Susan is an apostate - former - Narnian, which
> is a metaphor or allegory for an apostate - former - Christian. There
> are bible verses that say that when you're out, your friends on the
> inside should give up on winning you back.
>
The point is that Lewis could have decided, without doing any violence to
the plot, to have Susan die in the train accident and then be one of the
creatures who reject Aslan at the stable door. He didn't. We know Susan
isn't there, but we don't know what becomes of her ultimately.
>
> Having said that, neither she nor other characters seem to have been
> along for every visit from Earth to Narnia after their first.
>
> And apparently the actual obscurity of the Christian religion on Earth
> - by which I mean that the Persons of the Godhood are invisible and all
> evidence of their claimed activities seems to be open to contrary
> interpretations - I mean for real and not only in the Narnia books -
> seems to be represented in these books as an actual difference between
> the worlds; Aslan is not always around but you know about it when he
> is, and human visitors' memories of him are liable to fade quickly as
> the natural condition of Earth reasserts itself.
>
I think what Lewis is trying to show is that attachment to the trivia of
life brings with a huge capacity for self-deception, so that now Susan
genuinely believes that the thirty years or so she spent as Queen of Narnia
was dressing up and children's games.
Obviously, it is not really possible to go through a wardrobe into a magical
country, so we cannot say whether it is really possible to forget such a
thing or not. However the insight has some validity - you see a lot of
people with a totally distorted memory, usually slightly depressed people
interpreting everything in a negative way.
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tsbrueni

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Since: Dec 06, 2003
Posts: 980



(Msg. 11) Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2005 4:02 am
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Malcolm wrote:

> wrote
> >> >
> >> > We don't see her in Aslan's country because she is *alive*. She's not
> >> > in Hell, she is in England.
> >> >
> >> Yes, she wasn't the one who decided not to buy a ticket on the train that
> >> crashed, killing Peter, Edmund and Lucy. Lewis decided that.
> >
> > But being alive isn't an obstacle to visiting Narnia. They were always
> > alive before, and it only meant that they had to go back. What seems
> > to matter more is that Susan is an apostate - former - Narnian, which
> > is a metaphor or allegory for an apostate - former - Christian. There
> > are bible verses that say that when you're out, your friends on the
> > inside should give up on winning you back.
> >
> The point is that Lewis could have decided, without doing any violence to
> the plot, to have Susan die in the train accident and then be one of the
> creatures who reject Aslan at the stable door. He didn't. We know Susan
> isn't there, but we don't know what becomes of her ultimately.

Now THAT would have been a horrible shock to Peter and company!
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westprog

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Since: Dec 22, 2005
Posts: 19



(Msg. 12) Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2005 5:44 am
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wrote in message

>
> Malcolm wrote:
> > "Paul Ciszek" wrote
> > >>Also, we don't see Susan tortured in Hell. She is simply not present.
We
> > >>don't know what becomes of her, because the church never declares
anyone
> > >>to
> > >>be defititely in Hell.
> > >
> > > We don't see her in Aslan's country because she is *alive*. She's not
> > > in Hell, she is in England.
> > >
> > Yes, she wasn't the one who decided not to buy a ticket on the train
that
> > crashed, killing Peter, Edmund and Lucy. Lewis decided that.
>
> But being alive isn't an obstacle to visiting Narnia. They were always
> alive before, and it only meant that they had to go back. What seems
> to matter more is that Susan is an apostate - former - Narnian, which
> is a metaphor or allegory for an apostate - former - Christian. There
> are bible verses that say that when you're out, your friends on the
> inside should give up on winning you back.

Peter, Edmund and Lucy weren't in Narnia per se - they were in heaven. It
would not have been possible for a living Susan to see them there.


J/
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user311

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Since: Oct 06, 2004
Posts: 74



(Msg. 13) Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 5:18 am
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"rja.carnegie@excite.com" writes:

> But being alive isn't an obstacle to visiting Narnia. They were always
> alive before, and it only meant that they had to go back.

If I recalle correctly, in the end of "Prince Caspian" Susan and Peter
are told by Aslan that they will not return to Narnia for any further
adventures. And it has something to do with their age.

Since Susan is not on the crashing train, she doesn't take part in the
surprise post-mortem visit. Whether she will at a later time go to the
platonian England - or Narnia - is unknown. But she doesn't partake in
the "save Narnia" project of the other former visitors.

I know of two accounts of Susan's later whereabouts. Neither of them
claims she died and went to hell... Albeit Gaiman's version suggests
that her life _is_ one.
--
Peter B. Juul, o.-.o "Roses are #FF0000,
The RockBear. ((^)) violets are #0000FF,
I speak only 0}._.{0 all my base
for myself. O/ \O are belong to you"
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westprog

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Since: Dec 22, 2005
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(Msg. 14) Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 5:18 am
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"Peter B. Juul" wrote in message

> "rja.carnegie@excite.com" writes:
>
> > But being alive isn't an obstacle to visiting Narnia. They were always
> > alive before, and it only meant that they had to go back.
>
> If I recalle correctly, in the end of "Prince Caspian" Susan and Peter
> are told by Aslan that they will not return to Narnia for any further
> adventures. And it has something to do with their age.
>
> Since Susan is not on the crashing train, she doesn't take part in the
> surprise post-mortem visit. Whether she will at a later time go to the
> platonian England - or Narnia - is unknown. But she doesn't partake in
> the "save Narnia" project of the other former visitors.
>
> I know of two accounts of Susan's later whereabouts. Neither of them
> claims she died and went to hell... Albeit Gaiman's version suggests
> that her life _is_ one.

What's the non-Gaiman?

J/
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user311

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Posts: 74



(Msg. 15) Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 5:19 am
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"Malcolm" writes:

> Obviously, it is not really possible to go through a wardrobe into a magical
> country,

Oh, but it is. you just never did. Or you've forgotten.
--
Peter B. Juul, o.-.o "All great epics come to an end. The Iliad. The
The RockBear. ((^)) Odyssey. War and Peace. Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
I speak only 0}._.{0 Just kidding. The Tolstoy book is a ringer.
for myself. O/ \O Doesn't belong on this list. Too literal.
Not enough monsters." - New York Newsday
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