Why didn't Susan appear in the Last Battle?

In Europe, at least, noncommercial works aren't bound by "extended"
intellectual rights (i.e., for them, while text IS copirighted as such,
charachters are not). On Fanfiction.net you can find examples, but too
few for Narnia...
 >> Stay informed about: Why didn't Susan appear in the Last Battle? 

And in Europa, Lewis copiright DOES expire 2033, though I don't be
stories written now will survive till that. They should be found and
archivated till then...
 >> Stay informed about: Why didn't Susan appear in the Last Battle? 

SS13 wrote:

> And in Europa, Lewis copiright DOES expire 2033, though I don't be
> stories written now will survive till that. They should be found and
> archivated till then...

What will keep the Lewis estate from simply renewing the copyright a la
Disney?
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Tim Bruening wrote:
> SS13 wrote:
>
> > And in Europa, Lewis copiright DOES expire 2033, though I don't be
> > stories written now will survive till that. They should be found and
> > archivated till then...
>
> What will keep the Lewis estate from simply renewing the copyright a la
> Disney?

Umm, the fact that there is no longer any such thing as renewing a
copyright, and hasn't been for some time now.

If Bavaria continues to Extend all copyright, and the rest of the world
continues to follow suit, then the Lewis estate needs to do nothing.

What they can do (and Disney HAS done) is attempt to trademark the
characters. Trademarks never expire as long as they are defended.

DougL
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On Sun, 26 Feb 2006 15:45:29 -0800, Tim Bruening
wrote:

>What will keep the Lewis estate from simply renewing the copyright a la
>Disney?

Not having as much money as Disney has to rule us.
 >> Stay informed about: Why didn't Susan appear in the Last Battle? 

Malcolm wrote:

> wrote
> >> >
> >> > We don't see her in Aslan's country because she is *alive*. She's not
> >> > in Hell, she is in England.
> >> >
> >> Yes, she wasn't the one who decided not to buy a ticket on the train that
> >> crashed, killing Peter, Edmund and Lucy. Lewis decided that.
> >
> > But being alive isn't an obstacle to visiting Narnia. They were always
> > alive before, and it only meant that they had to go back. What seems
> > to matter more is that Susan is an apostate - former - Narnian, which
> > is a metaphor or allegory for an apostate - former - Christian. There
> > are bible verses that say that when you're out, your friends on the
> > inside should give up on winning you back.
> >
> The point is that Lewis could have decided, without doing any violence to
> the plot, to have Susan die in the train accident and then be one of the
> creatures who reject Aslan at the stable door. He didn't. We know Susan
> isn't there, but we don't know what becomes of her ultimately.

I'm surprised that Lucy didn't cite Susan's absence as an obstacle to
being perfectly happy in Narnia Heaven!
 >> Stay informed about: Why didn't Susan appear in the Last Battle? 

Nyrath the nearly wise wrote:

> Tim Bruening wrote:
> > I'm surprised that Lucy didn't cite Susan's absence as an obstacle to
> > being perfectly happy in Narnia Heaven!
>
> C.S. Lewis explains why this is not so in THE GREAT DIVORCE.
>
> According to Lewis, all apostates reject heaven by their
> own free will. If those in heaven cannot be happy due
> to their apostate friends, you are in essence making
> the dog in the manger the tyrant of the universe.

Lucy doesn't seem to me mature enough to buy that philosophy.

If you don't care about your friends, even apostate ones, do you deserve to
be in Heaven?
 >> Stay informed about: Why didn't Susan appear in the Last Battle? 

Tim Bruening wrote:
>>> I'm surprised that Lucy didn't cite Susan's absence as an obstacle to
>>> being perfectly happy in Narnia Heaven!
>
> Lucy doesn't seem to me mature enough to buy that philosophy.
>
> If you don't care about your friends, even apostate ones, do you deserve to
> be in Heaven?

From THE GREAT DIVORCE by C.S. Lewis

"And yet . . . and yet ... ," said I to my Teacher, when all the shapes and
the singing had passed some distance away into the forest, "even now I am not
quite sure. Is it really tolerable that she should be untouched by his misery,
even his self-made misery?"

"Would ye rather he still had the power of tormenting her? He did it many a
day and many a year in their earthly life."

"Well, no. I suppose I don't want that."

"What then?"

"I hardly know, Sir. What some people say on earth is that the final loss of
one soul gives the lie to all the joy of those who are saved."

"Ye see it does not."

"I feel in a way that it ought to."

"That sounds very merciful: but see what lurks behind it."

"What?"

"The demand of the loveless and the self-imprisoned that they should be
allowed to blackmail the universe: that till they consent to be happy (on
their own terms) no one else shall taste joy: that theirs should be the final
power; that Hell should be able to veto Heaven."

"I don't know what I want, Sir."

"Son, son, it must be one way or the other. Either the day must come when joy
prevails and all the makers of misery are no longer able to infect it: or else
for ever and ever the makers of misery can destroy in others the happiness
they reject for themselves. I know it has a grand sound to say ye'll accept no
salvation which leaves even one creature in the dark outside. But watch that
sophistry or ye'll make a Dog in a Manger the tyrant of the universe."
 >> Stay informed about: Why didn't Susan appear in the Last Battle? 

SS13 wrote:

> On Mar 17, 1:14 am, Nyrath the nearly wise
> wrote:
> > Tim Bruening wrote:
> > >>> I'm surprised that Lucy didn't cite Susan's absence as an obstacle to
> > >>> being perfectly happy in Narnia Heaven!
> >
> > > Lucy doesn't seem to me mature enough to buy that philosophy.
> >
> > > If you don't care about your friends, even apostate ones, do you deserve to
> > > be in Heaven?
> >
> > From THE GREAT DIVORCE by C.S. Lewis
> >
> > "And yet . . . and yet ... ," said I to my Teacher, when all the shapes and
> > the singing had passed some distance away into the forest, "even now I am not
> > quite sure. Is it really tolerable that she should be untouched by his misery,
> > even his self-made misery?"
> >
> > "Would ye rather he still had the power of tormenting her? He did it many a
> > day and many a year in their earthly life."
> >
> > "Well, no. I suppose I don't want that."
> >
> > "What then?"
> >
> > "I hardly know, Sir. What some people say on earth is that the final loss of
> > one soul gives the lie to all the joy of those who are saved."
> >
> > "Ye see it does not."
> >
> > "I feel in a way that it ought to."
> >
> > "That sounds very merciful: but see what lurks behind it."
> >
> > "What?"
> >
> > "The demand of the loveless and the self-imprisoned that they should be
> > allowed to blackmail the universe: that till they consent to be happy (on
> > their own terms) no one else shall taste joy: that theirs should be the final
> > power; that Hell should be able to veto Heaven."
> >
> > "I don't know what I want, Sir."
> >
> > "Son, son, it must be one way or the other. Either the day must come when joy
> > prevails and all the makers of misery are no longer able to infect it: or else
> > for ever and ever the makers of misery can destroy in others the happiness
> > they reject for themselves. I know it has a grand sound to say ye'll accept no
> > salvation which leaves even one creature in the dark outside. But watch that
> > sophistry or ye'll make a Dog in a Manger the tyrant of the universe."
>
> Yes, But killing Susan with the others wouldn't be a problem! The
> Pevensie Parents also made it to heaven, and they NEVER were friends
> of Narnia! Even some dwarves(that shot at Jill and Eustace) were told
> to enter Heaven... but not Susan.

I did find it surprising that at least one dwarf who had lost faith in Aslan and
killed Talking Horses made it into Heaven.
 >> Stay informed about: Why didn't Susan appear in the Last Battle? 

On Mar 17, 1:14 am, Nyrath the nearly wise
wrote:
> Tim Bruening wrote:
> >>> I'm surprised that Lucy didn't cite Susan's absence as an obstacle to
> >>> being perfectly happy in Narnia Heaven!
>
> > Lucy doesn't seem to me mature enough to buy that philosophy.
>
> > If you don't care about your friends, even apostate ones, do you deserve to
> > be in Heaven?
>
> From THE GREAT DIVORCE by C.S. Lewis
>
> "And yet . . . and yet ... ," said I to my Teacher, when all the shapes and
> the singing had passed some distance away into the forest, "even now I am not
> quite sure. Is it really tolerable that she should be untouched by his misery,
> even his self-made misery?"
>
> "Would ye rather he still had the power of tormenting her? He did it many a
> day and many a year in their earthly life."
>
> "Well, no. I suppose I don't want that."
>
> "What then?"
>
> "I hardly know, Sir. What some people say on earth is that the final loss of
> one soul gives the lie to all the joy of those who are saved."
>
> "Ye see it does not."
>
> "I feel in a way that it ought to."
>
> "That sounds very merciful: but see what lurks behind it."
>
> "What?"
>
> "The demand of the loveless and the self-imprisoned that they should be
> allowed to blackmail the universe: that till they consent to be happy (on
> their own terms) no one else shall taste joy: that theirs should be the final
> power; that Hell should be able to veto Heaven."
>
> "I don't know what I want, Sir."
>
> "Son, son, it must be one way or the other. Either the day must come when joy
> prevails and all the makers of misery are no longer able to infect it: or else
> for ever and ever the makers of misery can destroy in others the happiness
> they reject for themselves. I know it has a grand sound to say ye'll accept no
> salvation which leaves even one creature in the dark outside. But watch that
> sophistry or ye'll make a Dog in a Manger the tyrant of the universe."

Yes, But killing Susan with the others wouldn't be a problem! The
Pevensie Parents also made it to heaven, and they NEVER were friends
of Narnia! Even some dwarves(that shot at Jill and Eustace) were told
to enter Heaven... but not Susan.
 >> Stay informed about: Why didn't Susan appear in the Last Battle? 

Tim Bruening wrote in


>> Yes, But killing Susan with the others wouldn't be a problem! The
>> Pevensie Parents also made it to heaven, and they NEVER were friends
>> of Narnia! Even some dwarves(that shot at Jill and Eustace) were told
>> to enter Heaven... but not Susan.
>
> I did find it surprising that at least one dwarf who had lost faith in
> Aslan and killed Talking Horses made it into Heaven.

In understanding *The Last Battle* you have to remember that it's not just
an end to the Narnia series, but also is an allegory for the New Testament
end-of-the world story (Christian Eschatology).

"For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew
great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall
deceive the very elect." -- Matthew 24:24

The Dwarves who shoot at the children are a case in point. They do so to
the to the tune of, "the Dwarves are for the Dwarves", recent events
(having been sold as slaves to the Tisroc) creating a not un-natural deep
distrust. They clearly are done with holding to traditional Narnian values.

As for Susan, she is not like the Dwarf archers so much as the other
Dwarves who were locked in the stable with J & E. Even in Heaven's
Vestibule, they believe (and really perceive) themselves to be kept in some
sort of dark and foul place. They will not enter heaven, ultimately
because they will not allow themselves -- it doesn't exist for them.

By the time of TLB, Susan is pictured as habitually saying to her siblings,
"Fancy your going on about the games we used to play as children!" whenever
Narnia comes up. She doesn't remember that *this* game was real. So how,
in absence of basic belief that there is such a place, can she ever enter
there?

When I read of the Pevensie parents' death, I just took it for granted that
they were among the righteous who died in that train wreck, and of course
didn't have to be friends of Narnia to enjoy Heaven. Remember that the
"real" (eternal) Narnia is a subsection of Aslan's Country (Heaven), just
as the "real" Earth is.

BTW, it's not as though Susan were barred from Heaven forever. When TLB
closes, she can still be going to make over at some point in Earth's
future. Lewis nowhere says that she is a bad or malicious adult, just very
silly, which people sometimes get over.

RA
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> She doesn't remember that *this* game was real. So how,
> in absence of basic belief that there is such a place, can she ever enter
> there?

Susan's story doesn't end with the end of the book, does it?

> BTW, it's not as though Susan were barred from Heaven forever. When TLB
> closes, she can still be going to make over at some point in Earth's
> future. Lewis nowhere says that she is a bad or malicious adult, just
> very
> silly, which people sometimes get over.

Absolutely. It is very interesting that people do get so worked up about
poor Susan. I guess that's a testament to CSL that he's depicted such a
real person in Susan that one cares very much what happens to her. What you
say above is the very point. Susan's story goes on.

Best,
Ann
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On 16 Mar, 00:31, Tim Bruening wrote:
> Malcolm wrote:
> > wrote
>
> > >> > We don't see her in Aslan's country because she is *alive*. She's not
> > >> > in Hell, she is in England.
>
> > >> Yes, she wasn't the one who decided not to buy a ticket on the train that
> > >> crashed, killing Peter, Edmund and Lucy. Lewis decided that.
>
> > > But being alive isn't an obstacle to visiting Narnia. They were always
> > > alive before, and it only meant that they had to go back. What seems
> > > to matter more is that Susan is an apostate - former - Narnian, which
> > > is a metaphor or allegory for an apostate - former - Christian. There
> > > are bible verses that say that when you're out, your friends on the
> > > inside should give up on winning you back.
>
> > The point is that Lewis could have decided, without doing any violence to
> > the plot, to have Susan die in the train accident and then be one of the
> > creatures who reject Aslan at the stable door. He didn't. We know Susan
> > isn't there, but we don't know what becomes of her ultimately.
>
> I'm surprised that Lucy didn't cite Susan's absence as an obstacle to
> being perfectly happy in Narnia Heaven!- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

You must remember that when the question was asked the friends of
Narnia do not know that they are dead (apparently, though probably
every reader does). Of course Lucy wants Susan to be there, but
certainly not as much Aslan does. But neither of them want her to be
there against her will, what they want is for her to want to be there.
If Lucy had a prayer to Aslan, I think it would be that Susan be given
the best possible opportunity to desire Him and His country, without
infringing upon her freewill. I think that is probably what happened,
but that is another story.
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